Wednesday, September 2, 2009

On Blind Obedience and Infallibility in the Mormon Church

The Church denies teaching blind obedience to its members, and also denies that its Prophets are infallible.  Consider the following quotes:
Concerning the question of blind obedience. Not a man in this Church, since the Prophet Joseph Smith down to the present day, has ever asked any man to do as he was told blindly. - Joseph F. Smith, Sept. 3, 1892 (as quoted on the FAIR LDS website)
But I told them that a prophet was only a prophet when acting as such. - Joseph Smith, History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, edited by B.H. Roberts
This sounds all well and good, but then consider these quotes:
The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as President of this Church to lead you astray. - Wilford Woodruff, Official Declaration 1, Verse 14
When the prophet speaks the debate is over. -  N. Eldon Tanner, First Presidency Message, Ensign August, 1979
How is a member supposed to respond to counsel received from Church leaders?  Quoting further on from that same statement by Joseph F. Smith:
If we give you counsel, we do not ask you to obey that counsel without you know that it is right to do so. But how shall we know that it is right? By getting the Spirit of God in our hearts, by which our minds may be opened and enlightened, that we may know the doctrine for ourselves, and be able to divide truth from error, light from darkness and good from evil. - Joseph F. Smith, Sept. 3, 1892 (as quoted on the FAIR LDS website) 
Yes, the members are taught to study and pray in order to receive their own witness concerning any counsel that is given to them by the leaders of the Church, but let's consider how this actually works.  Let's say someone attends an official Church conference, and is given some particular teaching, or asked to sustain an action or practice.  He or she then proceeds to study and pray about it, in order to receive their own witness or confirmation.  Fine so far.  But what happens if that person comes to a different conclusion?  What if they become convinced that the teaching or practice in question is not true?

If they then share this with Church leaders, inevitably the validity of that person's spiritual experience is denied. Either they are getting their answer from the wrong source, are being deceived, haven't prayed sincerely or long enough, have some sin in their life that is clouding their judgment, etc. If the only acceptable answer is the one already identified by the Church leadership, how is this any different from blind obedience?

As a simple example: years back, prior to 1978, when I examined the Church's teachings and practices regarding Blacks and the Priesthood, I came to the conclusion that this was a mistaken policy, and was not of God.  If I were to voice this conclusion, I would be identified as an apostate, as speaking against the Lord's Anointed, and would be subject to Church disciplinary action.  If I persisted in maintaining my position, I would likely be excommunicated.

And yet, I would eventually have been proven correct.  Ironically, if someone today would take the position that the Church's original teachings and practices on this matter were in fact correct, they would similarly be subject to Church discipline.  In this way, the Church effectively does teach blind obedience, regardless of any statements to the contrary it might make.  Members are expected to obey their leaders, regardless of their personal thoughts or feelings.  For all practical purposes, this is blind obedience.

An extension of this is even more worrisome, and very reminiscent of the defense used by German soldiers at Nuremberg ('we were only following orders'):
My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.’ Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, ‘But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray. - Pres. Heber J. Grant to Marion G. Romney, as quoted by Pres. Ezra Taft Benson, October, 1960 General Conference
This problem is often humorously summarized as follows:

The Catholic Church teaches Papal Infallibility, but the Catholics don't believe it, while the Mormon Church denies the Infallibility of their Prophets, but nobody in the Chuch believes it.

The primary message of the Church here is to obey your leaders, even if you think they're wrong. I find this both frightening and unacceptable.

8 comments:

  1. When the prophet speaks the debate is over. - N. Eldon Tanner, First Presidency Message, Ensign August, 1979

    its because the prophet speaks from God.

    ReplyDelete
  2. I know he does too, people will question us and question us, but our beliefs are unshaken by the world, and will always remain so! God is our founder, not man, and we continue to be led by God today! Fpor those who qyuestion our church, I am not going to lecture you on how we are right, and how you guy are wrong, becau7se that oesnt prove anything to you! I invite all those with questions about our church to come and experience our church for theselves, ask their questions to a missonary or church leader, such as a bishop, or stake president! They will gladly answer!

    If we give you counsel, we do not ask you to obey that counsel without you know that it is right to do so. But how shall we know that it is right? By getting the Spirit of God in our hearts, by which our minds may be opened and enlightened, that we may know the doctrine for ourselves, and be able to divide truth from error, light from darkness and good from evil. - Joseph F. Smith, Sept. 3, 1892 (as quoted on the FAIR LDS website)

    you guys can et the gospel too! You can all feel the spirit and know of the truth! Don't judge us jbadly because everyone else does! Get youtr own opinion of our church!

    ReplyDelete
  3. please, if any person has a question, find out from us!

    ReplyDelete
  4. But what happens if that person comes to a different conclusion? What if they become convinced that the teaching or practice in question is not true?

    We have never recieved a different conclusion! God knows what is best for his people and will never tell them wrongly! I know it's true! I know the teachings of the prophets are the words of God, and that they are inspired, and scripture, just as the Bible and the Book of Mormon!

    ReplyDelete
  5. If the only acceptable answer is the one already identified by the Church leadership, how is this any different from blind obedience?

    blinf obedience is doing what somepone tells you, because they tell you. Is means you put no thought into itm, you just DO it. The church allows us all to ask and know of ourselves. Gods is the same yesterday, today,. and forever! His answers wil never chan ge, and so we all can get the chance to learn of the truth. If we have doubt, or don't know, we can ask of God ourselves, and we will get a confirmation that the words fof the prophets are true.

    ReplyDelete
  6. As a simple example: years back, prior to 1978, when I examined the Church's teachings and practices regarding Blacks and the Priesthood, I came to the conclusion that this was a mistaken policy, and was not of God. If I were to voice this conclusion, I would be identified as an apostate, as speaking against the Lord's Anointed, and would be subject to Church disciplinary action. If I persisted in maintaining my position, I would likely be excommunicated.

    God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. That part I know. His policy didn't change, the world did. the Black population was then ready to recieve the priesthood.
    But the part i want to point out, is that we do not excommunicate members if they do not believe, if you go around etqching people of the church that these things are wrong you might be, but members are only excommunicated for serious sins, and are still allowed to attend church all they want.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Lucas,

    I appreciate your taking the time to express your thoughts, although I have to say I think you’re missing most of the points I’ve been making, not only in this particular post, but in all of them.

    First, check my first entry, which is basically a bio. For one thing, I warn against “preaching” which is quite a bit different from rational debate. Several of your posts are quite “preachy” but I’ll let it slide for now.

    Second, if you would have read my bio, you would have learned that I have several decades worth of intense activity in the Church, including major leadership positions, along with extensive teaching and missionary experience as well. So I've been on the inside, and am intimately acquainted with the Church, in exquisite detail.

    Most of your statements follow the usual pattern of “testimonies” where one draws sweeping conclusions about truth and reality, based on your subjective experiences. If you will read several of my other posts, with an open mind, trying to understand things that I think you’re missing, you may begin to see that people from diverse religious traditions also have the same inner experiences as you, and yet draw very different conclusions. Each of you “know” that you’re right. Unfortunately, the world is not that simple.

    I would recommend you read a few books that may help to expand your understanding and self-insight, and begin to enable you to see how your own mind works. It may prove quite enlightening. You may or may not be ready for this at this point in your life, but just in case, consider some of the following:

    Why We Believe What We Believe by Andrew Newberg and Mark Waldman

    Why People Believe Weird Things by Michael Shermer

    On Being Certain - Believing You Are Right Even When You’re Not - Robert Burton

    Good luck in your search. Nothing will impede your own development and learning more than the certainty that you already have truth and knowledge. That unfortunately leads to ‘eternal stagnation’ instead of eternal progression.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Sir, I only hacve sincere regrets that you have fallen away from the church, but please, you are welcome back, and God wants to see you back on the right path. I wish only to help yo get back to the path the you once knew w right, not to argue with you. I beg you to go to church again, even if it is just once, and go with an open mind, raedy to learn. I wil;l answer any questions or doubt you may have had about our church to the best of my ability if you ask, although I have not yet gone on a mission. I am only saddened that you have fallen away after dong spo much for our church, I'm suire I am not the only person who would be glad to ehar you are back.

    ReplyDelete